Top 10 Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian by Heidi Lore
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
posted by gary at 10:10 AM
77 Comments:
Amen to that!!
Do you know what a fundamentalist Christian actually is? I can be a fundamentalist without also being irrational. Wikipedia the term, do your homework.
I've found that the most reliable way to identify a fundamentalist Christian is by their unwillingness to live the Golden Rule.
Funny how all you guys who rag on Christians don't have any proof of how life started, either. Evolution does not = creation.
Thank You.
You made me think and you made me squirm. That said, I still embrace the fundamentals.
Check this Out:
The Myth of_Moral
Neutrality
Amen from france
Christian beliefs are faith-based, despite what science or logic would imply. I've read much more convincing arguments made against the beliefs of Christians than of those made on this list. Try rewriting this without using words like: outraged, dehumanized, "face turns purple"...blah blah blah...so you are just as passionate about your cause as are they theirs....
Um... isn't this all a moot point?
"Funny how all you guys who rag on Christians don't have any proof of how life started, either."
What's the point of pretending you know something you don't?
No matter what you may believe, none of us are leaving here alive.
Ooohhhh. It feels so good to read my feelings articulated so God Damn well....
I also love anonymous' "I've found that the most reliable way to identify a fundamentalist Christian is by their unwillingness to live the Golden Rule."
Nirvana realized to read that.
The term for these types '_______ Christian' is a misnomer. I am not religious, but calling these people Christians of any form is giving them credit that they have not earned and do not deserve. I think psychophants might be a good alternative.
@jake
its not a moot point, its actually a 'moo' point (to quote joey from friends). the cow is regarded as a sacred animal by the hindus, and since this discussion focusses so strongly on religion, i request that whatever point is seeks to raise be assigned to the word 'moo'. ofcourse, one might as well invoke the word 'oink' but then it doesn't sound anywhere close to 'moot'.
It's unfortunate that the Christians you have encountered have been weak intellectually, but as others here have said, it does not mean we all are. I went to school to study my religion, so I could actually know what I was talking about. If you think non Christians are the only people offended by ignorant, irrational, and intellectually weak Christians, you are sorely mistaken.
Ouch. You just knifed fundamentalism in the gut. :)
So true. You cannot claim rational thought while buying into the fairy tale of some invisible bearded entity in the sky. That is a fact the fundies cannot refute because by being fundies they are purposely incapable of rational thought
A six year old asked me about the Biblical Noah. She is bright and asked me, so did everyone but Noah die? In an attempt to be neutral I simply said yes, everyone but Noah and his family. She looked stricken and said, "Why did God kill all those people?" "Well, God was very, very angry at them." She looked at me with big eyes for a moment, then we both burst out laughing. I'll never forget that.
There are a couple of things that bother me particularly about Christianity. First, why is it so great of Jesus to give his life for humanity? I'd say just the opposite, that he'd be a jerk no to do so. Anyway he was reborn and went to heaven anyway. I don't see the sacrifice personally.
Second, it's hypocritical that Christians are perfectly willing to use the products of science and engineering, which are of course based completely on evidence. Yet they are proud of their faith, and in fact look down on lots of evidence like carbon dating and dinosaur fossils.
i'm sorry that you've come across alot of ignorant Christians in your lifetime, but the truth is, no one in the world is as smart, sensitive, loving and humble as you wish they (sh)could be. We are all flawed and all seek truth the way we see it. that is the beauty of free will. I respect your opinion but I worried that anger drives your search for the truth instead of love.
To be a fundamentalist in any of the big 3 religions.
All you have to do is believe that the whole world and all
the unbelievers on it are doomed because a talking snake, told a naked lady
to eat a piece of fruit.
Then you have to choose and accept their entirely different perspectives on
what happened after that and what to do about it. Own a good sward, spear, firearm, weapon of
mass destruction or roadside bomb. Know how to use it/them on
the other talking snake/naked lady/fruit believers that do not agree with your specific
fundamentalists groups take on it all. And, have a political/religious leader that knows how to
use them too and believes he is directly using them because he is acting on their specific gods behalf.
All this from the minds of ancient opium farmers who claimed they never inhaled, but
had visions, talked to burning weeds, and made big floating boat zoos to save the world from
the nasty old unbelievers cuz they pissed off their god.
It’s easy to believe thank a god. Any god.
I'm pretty certain the author of this blog is not trying to stamp out "hate". Should Christians be painted with a broad brush? Not logical? Not intellectual?
What about...
http://www.rzim.org/
or
http://www.whitehorseinn.org/
"It's unfortunate that the Christians you have encountered have been weak intellectually, but as others here have said, it does not mean we all are. I went to school to study my religion, so I could actually know what I was talking about. If you think non Christians are the only people offended by ignorant, irrational, and intellectually weak Christians, you are sorely mistaken."
Well said!
Hey here's another sign of a christian let alone a fundamentalist..
not a funny bone in za bod and if ya beleeve that nature nurture dichotomy then god failed someone?? i wonder who? any of youse christians follow?
the bub
How cute! Do you feel better now? Be serious, are you all "That will show them!"
What purpose does this serve?
God is dead. Science rules! No jesus, no allah, no buddha... JUST SAY NO TO GOD!
In response to #7, I'd just like to point out that Allah _is_ God/Jehovah. The three Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) all worship the same god.
True, but there are some Christians who believe this to not be true.
By the way, it wasn't Athiests who flew the planes into the WTC.
"By the way, it wasn't Athiests who flew the planes into the WTC."
You're right. It was our own God-fearing government.
A great scientist finally became smart enough and logical enough to perform all of God's powers. So one day he called out to God and said "hey God, I can do anything you can do, thus proving that science rules higher than you." God said "ok, well can you make a human out of dirt?" The scientist scoffed and said "Sure!" He reached down on the ground to pick up a handful of earth and God interrupted and said "No, no. Get you're own dirt."
Religion is basically a social phenomenon. You aren't religious because something intrinsic to that religion rings true to you; rather, it rings true to you, because the people you love and trust taught it to you--your parents and community. It is well observed that children will by and by take up their parents' religion. Your religion depends on the religion of your parents. Parents and community shape how children perceive their reality. Plain and simple. If you were born in Iraq you would be Muslim, in Japan perhaps a Buddhist. The content of the religion is meaningless. It is the reinforcement of the belief by close and important social relationships that gives religions their power over people. The people that do lose or gain religion later in life, do so most likely because their social groups have broken down. A child has abusive parents, so the child rejects the parents and their religion and ideals. Or a person was raise non-religious and does the same to rebel. Many evangelical groups can seem very caring to the people they so desperately want to convert. And they will gladly give you fellowship in exchange for your conversion. It is impossible to convince a stranger to second guess their deeply held beliefs, because compared to their parents and loved ones, who believe the same as them, you are nothing. And most likely they have been taught that people of different views are at the least foolish and wrong, but possibly crazy or even their enemy. Reason is nothing to people that so wish to belief what they do. Any rationalization will suffice to make their beliefs sound and tenable unto themselves. Religions would sputter out of existence if they could be compassed by reason. But, I'm afraid at this point, that most humans seem incapable stepping outside of themselves to see with eyes unclouded by their upbringing which borders on the edge of brainwashing.
Imagine a post titled, "Top 10 Signs You're a Jew"....How long would it last before the ADL, etc. shamed you into submission (removing the 'offending post')?
Just think about it. That would be "hate speech"...."anti-semitic"....but bigotry toward Christians (and I am NOT one) seems perfectly acceptable. The double-standards in especially the blogging world astound me.
"God is dead."--Friedrich Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead."--God
The original post is humorous in that the author's perceptions of Christianity and religion in general are laughable. While all points were humorous, not one point was true. Of course he just wrote this to stir the pot and stroke his ego, but his ego needs to get him into a library if he wants to blather on about topics of which he currently knows nothing.
Actually the most humorous part of the entire post is in imagining that the author would actually use these in some type of argument or debate. Of course, he'd be laughed out of the room by theists and atheists alike.
The irony of the post is that in trying to "stick it to" Christians, he has "stuck it to himself" by betraying his ignorance.
Given the author's apparent presuppositions, existential absurdity is your only option. How you would like yours served is your choice--with deity or without. See Kierkegaard for the former and Camus/Sartre for the latter.
mail.5ofbefwiwihivun6@pookmail.com
your list is no better than 10 other diatribes made by a fundie. Everybody believes what they want driven by they're feelings. Leave'em alone... unless of course you feel threatend by them.
I personally don't believe in religion, but I also don't diss those who do... live and let live.
Religion should be allowed to be critized just like everything else.
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson
"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."
— Thomas Paine
"All Bibles are man-made."
Thomas Edison
"It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men." - Carl Sagan
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony
What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak.
- George Santayana
“Although it is said that faith can move mountains, experience shows that dynamite works better.”
The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.
Ferdinand Magellan
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." - Napoleon Bonaparte (and to rob them)
People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.
--Dave Barry
"One of the greatest gifts science has brought to the world is continuing elimination of the supernatural."
— James D. Watson, Nobel laureate, co-discoverer of the molecular structure of DNA
"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves."
— Robert G. Ingersoll
People think that epilepsy is divine simply because they don't have any idea what causes epilepsy. But I believe that someday we will understand what causes epilepsy, and at that moment, we will cease to believe that it's divine. And so it is with everything in the universe.
--Hippocrates
The point is not that all religious people are bad; it is not that all bad things are done in the name of religion; and it is not that scientists are never
bad, or wrong, or self-deceived. The point is this: intellectual honesty is better (more enlightened, more useful, less dangerous, more in touch with reality, etc. ) than dogmatism.
Sam Harris
>>
Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed -- Martin Luther
If the bible had said that Jonah swallowed the whale, I would believe it.
-William Jennings Bryan
The post as a whole has some valid point, but it fails to anything but anger people. Sadly, I think that was the intent of the post. Shameful.
The following is a VERY generalized and bigoted view from a commenter who claims to be "Common Sense":
"by being fundies they are purposely incapable of rational thought"
You are my newest hero. So well said that I'm surprised so many fundies have dared to post their ill-conceived denials of reality. Good on em for reading it, at least. Shame they couldn't go the extra step and actually think about it as well.
This is totally retarded. Anonymous had it right when he said this needs to be rewritten. Next time try leaving out all the biased zeal... especially since that's exactly what you're trying to discredit in Christians.
Dan,
Succintly, insightfully, and accurately stated - you zeroed in on the point like a laser. I agree wholeheartedly.
Bravo!
My imaginary friend is better than your's.
You're obviously confusing extremists with fundamentalists.
I think Fundamentalist Christians would be more likely to respond to your examples in this way ...
10. pray for lost souls so they might be saved
9. pray for honest and fair debate on the matter
8. pray for the polytheists so they might be saved
7. pray for Muslims and fellow Christian-muslims who are murdered and beheaded in the name of Allah
6. NA
5. NA
4. NA
3. NA
2. NA
1. NA
Notice the difference yet? Prayer not hate and lashing out in ignorance as you were insinuating. The one's marked NA are so baseless and full of hate, that I think most Christians would be prompted to pray for *your* salvation. :)
Oh, and you do realize that there's more than one denomination in the Christian faith. It's very likely that you've met some people claiming to be Christians that were more pagan than Christian. It's truly amazing what you'll find on del.icio.us/popular these days
I am a 'fundamentalist' christian, but I try very hard to be reasonable. I apologize, on behalf of my faith, for any Christians that have been rude or stupid to you.
Try not to let sinful people (we all are) pull you away from the possibility of a perfect God. I'd be happy to discuss any of these issues with people that want a serious perspective from a Christian 'fundamentalist', goto my site and mail me.
God is collective conscience of the society. God is not an external entity, but within each of us. God is that part of our psyche (mind) that prompts us to do "good deeds" that are socially acceptable, and prompts us to keep away from "bad deeds" that are socially not acceptable. Collective conscience evolves from the individual conscience.
Collective conscience can reach out and alleviate sufferings of people in distress that's when God becomes real.
In a *real* free market economy where violence is not used to usurp wealth, the wealth distribution will be well spread out 10% rich people, 80% middle class people, 10% poor people. The majority middle class people will control 80% of the wealth.
Today world is going through a distress period, about 7% of the people on earth control 80% of it's resources/wealth, this is making life miserable for 93% of people in the world and it is happening without violence. This means that someone is manipulating trade in their own favor to usurp wealth. We are all selling and buying goods and services with currency then what's the problem? The problem is the "fiat currency" system, the currency notes that are issued without redemption obligation. Essentially what this means is currency issuer will buy your goods/services and give you a currency note but then if you give the currency back and want to buy goods/services from currency issuer, they are not obliged to give you anything back. In fact the Federal Reserve Bank does not have anything that has "value" (value means anything that will sustain life) in reserve, all they have is some Gold bars, you cannot eat it, nor can you use it to grow food the primary requirement to sustain life, so gold bars are just a token, which again needs redemption to realize "value", one token (paper currency) cannot be backed by another token(gold) isn't it? the whole system is a "BIG SCAM". Oops! this means people who control "fiat currency" racket can easily become rich isn't it? The reality is "YES" and it is happening, that is how 7% of the people control/own 80% of the resources/wealth.
It is time for collective conscience of people (God) to step in and alleviate the suffering of the people in distress. It is time for religious organizations around the world to wake up and fight the "fiat currency" problem by starting their own Banks that will issue *real* currency notes with redemption obligation. Let us make God a reality!
Listen to RANDALL TERRY, former head of Operation Rescue: "Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism." And of course, his classic, "I want you to just let a wave of intolerance...a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...." (from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-huberman/how-to-save-our-secular-a_b_40523.html)
God is love? Love thy neighbor? Bunch of hypocrites.
Also from and American in France, the country with the most atheists in the world. When GW finds that out maybe he'll invade France too.
Nobody here is going to hurt you. Whatever your pain is, Jesus will meet you there to walk through it with you. Jesus only came for those are willing to admit they need a better life. Why slam on Jesus followers for admiting they need to be living the life the Creator of the universe intended for all? Try Jesus first, then blog some more.
You know your fundamentalist Christian and fundamentally fallow the 66 books written by 40 Authors not by reading these logical fallacies written by someone who didn't do their homework. . pray for the trolls! and love them. The LORD says love them, HE will judge them. And I have a hunch he will use allah the moon god worshiping muslims.
I love the term fundamentalist christian... not sure why you would use that with a negative connotation.
Anyways here is my answer back..
I am Christian based on what the time tested Bible declares to be true.
Answers to your top 10:
10. The Bible declares there is No other God over and over again.
(Of course if you come with the premise that Bible is not true we have no common reference point and we will be going in circles)
9. No I don't feel dehumanized but sad for them. Again it negates what the Bible says that God create man and woman in the image of God. As for the proofs of evolution. It contains an incredible number of illogical and irrational proofs. Perhaps secular theories of evolution stem from the desire that do not want a creator because they do not want a judge. You may see answersingenesis.org for answers to scientific proofs.
8. I don't laugh at polytheists. I am sad for them. Yes I have no problem believing the Triune God.
This is not a classical logical contradiction as some have set out to prove.
7. This point shows your lack of understanding of the wrath of Holy and Mighty God against sin, even your sin. The sovereign God the creator and Judge may exercise justice. As far as atrocities in the name of Allah, deceived people time and again have committed various atrocities whether it be in the name of allah, Ram or even Christ( the crusades were an example).
6. Exercise of lust by the so called gods is not comparable overshadowing of the Holy Spirit in Power and the atoning work of the Eternal Son of God.
5. If you mean by bronze age tribesmen prophets who were carried by the Holy Spirit and wrote the Word of God.. then I believe the bronze age tribesman. But as far as the age of the earth is concerned I am not convinced fully either way.
4. You do not understand the Holiness of a Mighty and awesome God against sin and His redeeming love shown in Jesus Christ that those who believe in Him will have all their sins forgiven past, present and future. God is continually angry against sin. God is also loving that He does not want any to perish. I pray you believe. The Creator of all humans is jealous ( this is a good jealousy, and as always misunderstood by unbelievers..anyways it's like a husband or wife jealous for each other) for their worship.
3. Wrong. I believe because the Inerrant, infallible, clear Word of God says so. When teachers teach if what they teach does not line up with the Word of God, we reject them.
2. I never measured success rates. But God does answer prayers.
God answers to prayers in yes, no, wait and according His will for His glory and for His children's best good. His children of course do not know what is best for them. Needless to say He doesn't answer unbelievers because they are not His own ( at least not yet) .
1. Atheist and agnostics may know more facts about the Bible .. But fact without faith is dead. The Bible doesn't prove the existence of God etc. It presumes the existence of God. God in the Bible commands believe and we obey. As far as church history goes I would suggest reading solid christian history books like Just Gonzalez etc.
I am a Christian by the grace of God because of the complete work done by Jesus Christ on calvary who poured out His blood for my sin and resurrected on the third day as an attestation of God approving His work.
He now commands all to repent and believe in the Only Son, in the Name of Jesus Christ.
Fundamentalist, extremist, devout whatever you want to call them, the problem is that many such people (but not all) refuse to even contemplate that they might be wrong. This is arrogant, naive and the cause of a huge amount of death, suffering and conflict throughout the world.
The fact is that all religions and all denominations within them are basically trying to answer the same questions anyway...why are we hear, where are we going, how did we come to exist. We're all entitled to our views, but for gods sake (if there is one) can't we all keep an open mind rather than getting brainwashed into taking everything we're told by preachers or the media as gospel? (excuse the pun).
I wouldn't like to be described as fundamentalist, but your tacit jibes at Christian belief on the flipside of each charge against the fundamendalists might be said to display your own simplistic/fundamentalist understanding of the Christian faith and tradition, don't you think? I don't think you qualify as one of those 'knowing more' (10) with the stuff you come out with.
As Crockett says, religion festers in fundamentalism, but the secular festers in secular-ism. Mocking writing like this is not going to help with it!
I understand your frustration with the fundamentalists, and that you've had enough stupid comments already - but it's worth coming from a place of compassion, rather than contempt, as default - focussed on reconciliation rather than point scoring.
Mathematically speaking we might be wrong.
What is sad to see is if we are right you are in deep deep soup. If we are wrong I am fine.
I fail to see how christians are a cause for the death and suffering.. ( perhaps you have been brainwashed.. the same thing seculars accuse us with)..if anything.. it is from a christian point of view that fundamentally all science and arts are built upon.. Anyways.. I get a feeling I am wasting my time with blind Christian bashers.
"First, why is it so great of Jesus to give his life for humanity?"
I think the answer to this question, asked by another earlier in this board, is that according to Biblical accounts, Christ was completely blameless - totally without sin or guilt - he lived a perfect life - and to then willingly die on the cross when it would have been so easy to simply perform another miracle is a sacrifice I wouldn't want to make.
Sure, he did rise again in three days - but would you allow anyone to nail your hands and feet to a piece of wood and hang you out in the hot sun for 12 hours?
Some people actually do this as a re-enactment in certain countries and it's quite an ordeal.
Anyway, there's your answer. You don't have to like it, but that's it.
Ah, this made my sunday. I wish you'd added something about them assuming that the bible was written in English.
Let us not forget that the bible has been translated and retranslated time and time again, compiled from a large sum of material (much of it never made it), condensed, and finally interpreted according to the whim of the individual.
No wonder there are so many Christian churches who disagree with one another.
I just watched "jesus Camp" last night (it's now on Google Video. I recommend it.) Anyway, if the people in the documentary are representative of most Christian fundamentalists then we have a very big problem in the U.S.
As for the post, I thought it was great. It does a good job of pointing out the obvious absurdities inherent in Christianity. What was said really can't be disputed in a rational way. Some leaving comments are offended. This is to be expected. But, what I find curious is that they can't come up with any good arguments against what was originally said in the post (correct me if I'm wrong.)
Anyway, great post.
Allah and the God of the Jews and Christians are certainly not one and the same. Why do you think so? Because the Quran and the Bible talk about about a lot of stories that are quite similar? Because Abraham in the Quran and the Bible pray to some God? Now lets put this aside for a minute and think what might seperate these two: One God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, the other Ismail. One God has a son, the other absolutely denies the existence of a son and condemns anybody who would dare to claim the fathership of God. Another one: God is promising to fogive those who believe in his son, while the other never promises anything. There is a whole lot more to say about the differences between the God of the Bible and Allah in the Quran.
Ya know something, if this post was written to attack any other religion, the author would be guilty of Hate Speech.
Funny how there's always a double standard when it comes to Christianity.
How about you let me believe what I wish to believe and you do as well. I'm not trying to convert you so don't attack my faith.
Who knew that this post on my blog would attract such attention? Thanks to all.
Please note that I am not the author of the 10 points--that is Heidi Lore.
I respect all religions (except Scientology).
Title should be renamed "Top 10 Myths about Fundamentalist Christians."
Christians, wake up! This is how a secular progressive sees you. Don't believe me? Just watch the twisted depictions in "Jesus Camp" documentary or Alexandra Pelosi's, "Friends of God" documentary. There's a lot of deceptive documentaries out there mocking Christians these days. You have your work cut out for you.
Jx, the Bible is one of the most popular pieces of literature on the planet with literally thousands of translations from one language to the other, yet the message has not been lost. As evident by the millions of Christians across the globe. Any tampering with the original translation would be trivial for any studied theologian to detect. Does religious hi-jacking happen? You bet, but the Bible's message still remains under all the smoke and mirrors.
Daniel, good call on the double standards being presented here.
Love the list; quite funny.
The best part of it is that once the moderate Christians stop giggling, they may actually think a bit about the details even if they disagree.
Fundamentalists who don't find it humorous will not likely find anything to contemplate and will just (as we've seen here) object to those same details.
Along those lines, here is a site that complements your list;
whywontgodhealamputees.com
No-one KNOWS what anything IS. We merely know ABOUT things. Everyone in this discussion acts like they are KNOWERS.
Many of you were given a book. Your book is just as capable of belief as non-belief.
No-one wins here. Sorry.
Just as much as us christians (I'm not a fundie, I promise) need to grow in knowledge, so does the author of this. They need to ask a knowledgeable person about these, (because some can be easily explained) and then write an informed article.
All religions based upon deity worship by definition are little more than shaman beliefs in my opinion. Crap in one hand and pray in the other, see which hand is filled first.
When teachers teach if what they teach does not line up with the Word of God, we reject them.
Among the many, many things Ajay said that are completely asinine, is the above comment.
Do you eat shellfish? You should be stoned to death (Leviticus, anyone?). Same with your kids disobeying you - stone them.
You use lots of high and mighty talk about how your God is better than any other God, and employ circular arguments erroneously. Using your faith to defend faith is a meaningless exercise.
And, in case you don't notice, proselytizing in your snobby manner really turns people off. I can only assume from your pompous talk that you've never managed to actually convert someone. Who the hell wants to listen to some pompous blowhard keep saying that everyone else is wrong, I'm right? The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true? How is that proof of anything.
I'm agnostic. I, like every other human on earth, DON'T KNOW. You BELIEVE you are right, but that doesn't MAKE you right.
This is so funny.
The thing is noone knows for sure, so it maybe true or not.
So look in this way. If God doesnt exist i dont loose anything if I go to chruch and worship, and if he does exist it means eternal life for me, and for you hand full of that thing that you write about.
Just think about it.
Does it make me a hypocrite i dont think so :)
Anonymous said .."Do you eat shellfish? You should be stoned to death (Leviticus, anyone?). Same with your kids disobeying you - stone them."
There is a difference between civil law for national Israel and moral ethical law. Taking passages out of context is a very boring and age old trick of many deceivers and deceived.
Anonymous said
“You use lots of high and mighty talk about how your God is better than any other God, and employ circular arguments erroneously. Using your faith to defend faith is a meaningless exercise”.
About circular reasoning.. it's obvious that you are a thinker, good for you.. it does seem like that doesn't it?
But think about this.. you always need a reference point.. The real question is what is your ultimate authority? Here are some popular examples..
"My reason is my ultimate authority."
"Logical consistency is my ultimate authority"
" What I perceive through my senses are my ultimate authority"
" I know there can be no ultimate authority because I do know of any such ultimate authority"
Wayne Grudem says it best in His systematic theology..
How does a Christian or anyone else choose among the various claims for absolute authority? Ultimately the truthfulness of the Bible will commend itself as being far more persuasive than other religious books ( such as the Book of Mormon or the Quran) or any other intellectual construction of the human mind( such as logic , human reason, sense experience, scientific methodology, etc). It will be persuasive because in the actual realization all of these other candidates for ultimate authority are seen to be inconsistent or to have shortcomings that disqualify them, while the Bible will be see to be fully accord with all that we know about the world around us, about ourselves and about God.
The Bile will commend itself as being persuasive in this way, that is, if we are thinking rightly about the nature of reality, our perception of it and of ourselves and our perception of God. The trouble is that because of sin our perception of it and analysis of God and creation is faulty. Sin is ultimately irrational and sin makes us think incorrectly about God and about creation. Thus in a world free from sin because sin distorts people's perception of reality , they do not recognize Scripture for what it really is. Therefore it requires the work of the Holy Spirit, overcoming the effects of sin, to enable us to be persuaded that the Bible is indeed the Word of God and that claims it makes for itself is true.
Thus in another sense, the argument for the Bible as God's word is not a typical circular argument. The process of persuasions is perhaps better likened to a spiral in which increasing knowledge of Scripture and increasingly correct understanding of God and creation tend to supplement one another in a harmonious way each tending to confirm the accuracy of the other. This is not to say that our knowledge of the world around us serves as a higher authority than Scripture but rather such knowledge it if is correct knowledge continues to give greater and greater assurance that the Bible is the only true and ultimate authority and that other competing claims for ultimate authority are false
Anonymous said “And, in case you don't notice, proselytizing in your snobby manner really turns people off. I can only assume from your pompous talk that you've never managed to actually convert someone”.
If I have any converts of myself that would be terrible. I cannot convert anyone. It is God who give life to dead people. I pray that God would show you the same mercy. As far as me being an instrument by which God did convert people.. I praise God that He has used me. At least three of my former Hindu friends are Christians to the praise and glory of God alone.
Anonymous said” I, like every other human on earth, DON'T KNOW. You BELIEVE you are right, but that doesn't MAKE you right”.
This is very popular. Could be also described as the hermeneutic of humility.
My friend what I am telling you is this: that you can know and the way is Christ as revealed in the Scriptures. God is not cosmic hide and seeker. He is a living and gracious God who makes Himself known in creation and specially in His Scripture where He has revealed a plan of Salvation and saves all who come to Him. Come now and Cry to Him. Repent and believe in the name of the only begotten, Son of God, who was born, lived a complete sinless life, died and rose again. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. .. and the time is short…
It's wonderful as well as easy to pick on fundamentalists... but why stop there? (erasing inflametory sentence about all religions here) An obvious plug would be to suggest reading SAM HARRIS (End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason OR Letter to a Christian Nation).
"He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
-Douglas Adams
Pefect.
If the same type of list was posted about Muslim Islamic Radicals there would be fatwahs issued and threats of death and endless babble about how insensitive people are towards them. There would be flag burnings, effigy burnings and calls from the nation of Iran for an essay competition about western culture and religion. Yet the "Christians" they so gleefully like to find every miniscule fault with and pick on, mock and laugh at do nothing except forgive them and turn the other cheek.
I am always suprised, though I guess I should not be, at the laughter, smugness and double standard people have when it comes to Christianity versus other religions of the world. It's not a perfect religion, without faults, or people without out faults ... show me one religion or person that is.
Christianity bothers atheists and agnostics the most. I think its because they realize its the truth. If they were truly happy in their agnostic/atheists, beliefs, they would leave Christianity alone.
In response to #7, I'd just like to point out that Allah _is_ God/Jehovah. The three Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) all worship the same god.
Technically this is wrong. The "Christian" G/god "sent his only son so that who so ever believes in him would not perish but have eternal life." And if you read any part of the New Testament, this same God tells Christians to go out and make disciples of the nations through preaching the Word and bearing testimony to Christ's work (salvation) in their lives.
The "Jewish" G/god has not yet sent his Messiah to his people, Therefore to call Jesus/ Yeshu the Christ is blasphemous.
The "Muslim" god, Allah, revealed to Muhammed (as per the Quran) that anyone who does not believe in him should not be prayed for or bothered with since they are going to hell anyway. Also if one encounters a disbeliever, one is free to kill them, treat them harshly or kill them.
These sound like three totally different gods to me. But maybe that's just my opinion.
A lot of people have been saying that Christians only rely on their faith, and faith is important, but if there was nothing more to Christianity then "faith", surely there wouldn't be so many Christians in the world. Surely there's got to be something more in it.
just a few comments on other comments.
about taking passages of the Bible out of context and it's an old trick of deceivers: I assume the Bible is open to opinions. Can't have it both ways.
"If they were truly happy in their agnostics, atheists, beliefs they would leave Christianity alone."
fine....if Christians were truly happy in their faith they would leave the other Faiths alone.
on the 3 faiths worshipping same God: Well...before the birth of Christ the Old Testament was alive and kicking. The Christian bible is both Old and New Testament. Wonder why the Christian faith would embrace the Old testament?
Allah and violence against people who do not pray to him: Seems like those folks burned at the stake by the Christian church would have a say. Can we say "Crusades?" The KKK seems to think they are devout Christians.
And non-truths Christians get upset about when spoken by others of different faiths: I am Pagan(I'm 51) and according to a good deal of Christians I cook and eat babies during black rites and Celebrating the gift of nature is blasphemous. Well, if people would listen to others instead of the holier-than-thou posturing a lot of people could learn.
Something "more" to the Christian faith? I don't know. I do know that some damn evil people claim to be Christians. Yes...other faiths have those people. The fastest growing religion? Islam. Surely there's got to be something more in it?
You should probably read up on metaphysics and the Holy Trinity before comparing a belief in a "Triune God" with polytheism.
In the end it comes down to results. Believing in some absolute moral truth, be that communism or scripture, leads directly to attrocities, such as the stalinist purges or assaults on homosexuals.
On the other hand, believing in uncertainty and following the rigorous logical patterns needed minimize that uncertainty seems to produce good actions. It will lead you to not condemn homosexuals, but try to work with them (to understand them) and to build interesting and positive social structures. (Such as gay-straigh alliances)
All moral precepts may be determined by rigorous application of Cost-Benefit analysis.
Before I became a Christian I agreed with most of these arguements posted here, calling Christians foolish. I thought I had some intelligent arguements to prove the bible wrong. But over time I continued to be confronted by my own sinful nature and my need for love. Intelligence is not the key to God's kingdom (not that intelligence is a bad thing), it's an inner conviction of sin and desire for the love of our creator. Without those two things you will continue to believe critical thinking opposed to the God of the Bible.
One day you will bow the knee to the Lord Jesus Christ. Will you be His friend or will you be HIs foe?
Ten Signs That You Are A Fanatical Atheist
1. You vigorously deny the existence of God, but are outraged when someone asks this God (whom you believe to be non existent) to bless you or your country, or even mentions him in public. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Pentagon\archive\200301\PEN20030128a.html
http://www.rutherford.org/Issues/FreeSpeech.asp
http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/legal_features.asp?article_id=74
http://www.crosswalk.com/1203215/
2. You assume the Theory of Evolution is a fact, and see any educator who doesn’t believe in it as inferior or not a true scientist.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/20/intelligent.design/index.html
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53330
3. You laugh at theists, but have no problem believing that this perfect universe was created by an explosion.
http://nowscape.com/big-ban2.htm
http://www.luminet.net/~wenonah/new/bigbang.htm
4. Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” committed by Christians and religious people, but you think nothing of the millions more than have been killed in the name of ideology or land, led by Atheists like Hitler, Stalin, and.Mao Zedong.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/killergod.php
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1411041/posts
http://www.trueorigin.org/hitler01.asp
http://www.geocities.com/mikem2u/hitler.html
Note: There are those today who find it convenient to claim that Hitler was a devout Christian. Careful, open minded study of the last two links mentioned should be sufficient to settle this misunderstanding. Hitler’s participation and supposed belief in Christianity was nothing more than a political ploy to win the hearts of Germans.
5. You claim that Jesus Christ never existed, despite the mountainous evidence to the contrary.
http://www.christian-faith.com/html/page/did_jesus_exist
http://www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm
http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html
6. You are willing to spend your life looking for missing links and answers that you hope will explain Evolution, but ridicule the scientific theory of Intelligent Design.
http://www.duncanproductions.com/SBCOC/faq/evidence_against_evolution.html
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/evidence-against-evolution-faq.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bowdenmalcolm/evol.htm
http://www.evolution-facts.org/Ev-V3/3evlch21.htm
7. You assume that Christians believe that those who do not share their exact beliefs will spend their Eternity in an infinite Hell and Suffering, simply because the author of this presentation said so. You file numerous lawsuits to take away the First Amendment rights of Christians, but consider yourself “tolerant” of other people’s opinions. Public officials do not waive their right to freedom of religion and free speech.
In general, Christians believe that God, and only God, will judge the living and the dead. God is loving, kind, and merciful, be he is also just (and more so than any mortal can be, because he knows the intentions of the heart). Heaven would not be Heaven if God allowed evil people in it.
8. You ignore or ridicule modern scientists, historians, geologists, biologists, and physicists who try to work together with apologetics and theologians to show that The Bible does not contradict any of these sciences. You then write your “findings” on the internet in an effort to “disprove” Christianity.
http://www.csinfo.org/Science_and_the_Scriptures.htm
Many contradictions or errors that are said to be “found” in The Bible can be exposed here.
http://contenderministries.org/discrepancies/contradictions.php#5
In this information age, just about any “error” or “contradiction” you can find in The Bible can easily be made clear with a little bit of research. No, you don’t have to be a Hebrew or Greek scholar. A good research site should give you the Concordance reference as well as the original word used in the manuscripts, so that you can look it up yourself and make sure you’re not being misled.
9. You misunderstand God as being some sort of genie that is obligated to answer each request exactly the way it is given.
When I hear arguments like this, I can’t help but remember the scene from “Bruce Almighty” where prayers are piling up and Jim Carrey decides it would be more efficient to answer all the prayers. But the next thing you know there is a riot because millions of people won the lottery and received 17 cents each. Causing the guy that cut you off in traffic to drive off a cliff shouldn’t be too difficult, right? God, in his wisdom, does not answer all prayers (including those that may be made in anger or with selfish intents).
You may have heard of the failure of the “Great Prayer Experiment”. What you may not know is that two double blind studies had been done before, and both showed that prayer improved the health of hospital patients. More on this can be found here: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/the_god_delusion2.php#n10
In closing, God knows what is best for us in each circumstance, and does according to his will because it is in our best interests.
“Neither [party] anticipated that the cause of the conflict [slavery] might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes.”
Abraham Lincoln, during his Second Inaugural Address on March 4, 1865.
10. Currently your main source of information on Christianity is the internet, and you primarily use atheist sites.
“Anger and intolerance are the twin enemies of correct understanding.”
Mahatma Gandhi
“Laws alone cannot secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population”.- Albert Einstein
"Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly, and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true. "- Dr. Martin Luther King
Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech. - Benjamin Franklin
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. - Thomas Paine
Ultimately, America's answer to the intolerant man is diversity, the very diversity which our heritage of religious freedom has inspired. – Robert F Kennedy
Don't get so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance. – Bill Maher
Whether you are a believer or an unbeliever, please remember that radicalism will do none among us any good. Please remember that you live in a diverse society and occasionally people will do things that offend you, and you will do things that offend other people. That is free speech, and free expression. You have a right
to it, and so do those who you do not agree with.
I did chuckle when I saw this I must admit. However, I find it amazing that people will go to the lengths of the world to try and prove something. Why can't people just be contempt with what THEY believe in whether, it be religious or not. Why do we have to continuously fight our position. By the way... if the bible is "god's words". if the bible is almighty and superior. Who are we to tie it down to one interpretation? we have no right. And this is coming from a person who doesn't believe in God or religion!
Magellan quote is a fabrication
This quote appears in over 150 sites on the Net. It's so popular one wouled think it's authentic.
The quote is a fabrication of Robert Green Ingersoll. It is found in his essay “Individuality.” This may be accessed at http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/individuality.html
It’s in the fourth paragraph of his essay:
It is a blessed thing that in every age some one has had individuality enough and courage enough to stand by his own convictions, -- some one who had the grandeur to say his say. I believe it was Magellan who said, "The church says the earth is flat; but I have seen its shadow on the moon, and I have more confidence even in a shadow than in the church." On the prow of his ship were disobedience, defiance, scorn, and success.
This was first pointed out, as far as I know, by Dr. Tom Gorski in his website “Knowing What Ain’t So” at http://www.churchoffreethought.org/cgi-bin/contray/contray.cgi?DATA=&ID=000011010&GROUP=048. Dr. Gorski is one of four founders of the The North Texas Church of Freethought.
To the credit of Wikiquote it clearly points out the quote is disputed and attributes it to Ingersoll http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Ferdinand_Magellan
At http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/Religion/Atheist%20Quotes.htm it immediately corrected the attribution: "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church."
..........Robert Green Ingersoll (not Ferdinand Magellan)
At http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-63650.html they already were able to determine that it was Ingersoll who in fact said the words he attributes to Magellan. “Regarding a flat earth, please note that Ingersoll used a quote attributed to Ferdinand Magellan (1480-1521), the Portuguese and Spanish explorer: ‘The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church.’ Ingersoll uses this quote to make a point: ‘The trouble with most people is, they bow to what is called authority.’ Ingersoll's thrust in this article is that ‘It is the duty of each and every one to maintain his individuality’ and ‘There can be nothing more utterly subversive of all that is really valuable than the suppression of honest thought--No man, worthy of the form he bears, will at the command of church or state solemnly repeat a creed his reason scorns.’ I agree with Ingersoll. If you do not, that is certainly your privilege.” The author assumes Ingersoll got it from an authentic source. But I have read the primary sources on Magellan—eyewitness accounts by Antonio Pigafetta, Gines de Mafra, Francisco Albo, The Genoese Pilot, Martinho de Aiamonte, Sebastian Elcano—nowhere is there such a statement from Magellan. Ingersoll most definitely cites no authority.
Vicente Calibo de Jesus
ginesdemafra@gmail.com
I, of course, a newcomer to this blog, but the author does not agree
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